The Effects of Language on Effectiveness

View previous topic View next topic Go down

The Effects of Language on Effectiveness

Post  sendoshin on Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:32 pm

I haven't seen much material on this myself, but I don't believe I'm the first to have wondered: how does the language used by the practitioner(s) effect (cause) and affect (modify) the outcome of scripted workings, such as ceremonies? There are some which require a specific language be used, and that language is almost always very old and rarely used in everyday speech (and thus more prone to mispronunciation?). But what of the others? Does the language spoken have any discernible effect on the outcome of the process?

And what happens with those who cannot vocalize? Is sign language sufficient? Or would it interfere too much with the proper workings of the rituals? How do those who cannot vocalize, for whatever reason, participate in such forms of magic-working?

- Sendoshin

Edits for clarity and accuracy; all edits in blue text


Last edited by sendoshin on Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:45 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Accuracy update)

_________________
Life is a pleasure, but even pleasures become painful after long enough exposure.
avatar
sendoshin

Age : 31
Location : Idaho
Number of posts : 239
Registration date : 2008-08-25

View user profile http://digimob.freewebhostx.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: The Effects of Language on Effectiveness

Post  amandachen on Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:57 pm

sendoshin wrote:how does the language used by the practitioner(s) effect the outcome of scripted workings, such as ceremonies?
I had to read the rest of your post to realize you meant 'affect' here.
avatar
amandachen
Admin

Location : Not an admin, so quit pestering me
Number of posts : 291
Registration date : 2008-08-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Effects of Language on Effectiveness

Post  sendoshin on Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:21 pm

I probably actually meant both...

- Sendoshin

_________________
Life is a pleasure, but even pleasures become painful after long enough exposure.
avatar
sendoshin

Age : 31
Location : Idaho
Number of posts : 239
Registration date : 2008-08-25

View user profile http://digimob.freewebhostx.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: The Effects of Language on Effectiveness

Post  amandachen on Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:36 pm

Ok then, can you explain your post more clearly? Thanks.
avatar
amandachen
Admin

Location : Not an admin, so quit pestering me
Number of posts : 291
Registration date : 2008-08-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Effects of Language on Effectiveness

Post  sendoshin on Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:52 pm

Hrm, I'll try. I tend to be a bit verbose.

Basically, I'm wondering what the various views are on how language influences the outcome of a given practice:

  • Does translating the wording into the participant's native tongue do anything to the effectiveness of that rite?
  • What further barriers might exist - if any do at all - if that "native tongue" is a form of sign language?
  • Is there anything which can be done to compensate for such barriers?
  • Who is denied opportunities for spiritual growth because of this?
- Sendoshin

_________________
Life is a pleasure, but even pleasures become painful after long enough exposure.
avatar
sendoshin

Age : 31
Location : Idaho
Number of posts : 239
Registration date : 2008-08-25

View user profile http://digimob.freewebhostx.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: The Effects of Language on Effectiveness

Post  amandachen on Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:17 am

Tibetans mispronounce Sanskrit words in all sorts of hilarious ways. I don't know how you could test this to see if it made any difference to their sadhanas.

http://www.easterntradition.org/sanskrit%20mantras%20in%20the%20kalacakra%20sadhana.pdf
avatar
amandachen
Admin

Location : Not an admin, so quit pestering me
Number of posts : 291
Registration date : 2008-08-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Effects of Language on Effectiveness

Post  Frater_NS on Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:55 pm

sendoshin wrote:Does the language spoken have any discernible effect on the outcome of the process?

No. Spaking in Ye Olde way is purely a psychological crutch, to make the ritual different that your daily speech.

I can see you are worrying about scripted written rituals - why don't you re-write the parts yourself? Psychological re-writing will help and the function of the ritual will not change as long as the same formulae is followed and you have the inner connections to the God Names/Symbols/etc (See my previous post on "Why meditate on God Names")
Doesn't matter how you pronounce a Name, as the Name itself has no power without the inner connection.

sendoshin wrote:
And what happens with those who cannot vocalize? Is sign language sufficient? Or would it interfere too much with the proper workings of the rituals? How do those who cannot vocalize, for whatever reason, participate in such forms of magic-working?

I haven't known any mute magicians, but I believe as long as the formulae is followed they should have no problems.

Suggestion of a way of grounding the energy in Assiah:
Briah - Connection to God Name
Yetzirah - Visualise God Name
Assiah - Vibrate God Name OR if you can't vibrate exhale and knock at the same time.
Knocks are used a LOT in GD rituals, and their function is to ground energy.

Frater_NS

Age : 47
Number of posts : 132
Registration date : 2008-08-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Effects of Language on Effectiveness

Post  neutralrobotboy on Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:56 am

My take: There may be times when language really doesn't tranlate. If part of the ritual is related to the actual sounds themselves (say, rhyming or alliteration or other similar devices are used, for example, to get you in the mood), then translation might not fully work. Similarly, if the quirks of one language produce different mental connections from the quirks of another, some essential element may be missing as a result of translation. Hebrew, for example, will probably evoke a totally different set of associations than English. Qabalistic implications may be lost, especially if you haven't done the translation yourself. Puns and other word-plays will tend to be lost, unless the languages are sufficiently related.

Along similar lines, "translating" into [your language here]-prime (without any form of the verb "to be"), for example, may have slightly different results, and other languages may also have grammatical features that affect results similarly. The difference in such cases would be because the change in language makes for a change in internal symbol-connection and thought patterns -- in fact, a significant enough change in language usage will cause a shift in consciousness.

If you're mute and/or deaf, that will probably change some things. Some rituals might not be for you. I doubt that will seriously affect your attainment in the long run, though.

neutralrobotboy

Age : 36
Number of posts : 255
Registration date : 2008-12-23

View user profile http://www.namelessnumberhead.com

Back to top Go down

Re: The Effects of Language on Effectiveness

Post  amandachen on Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:09 am

Anyone recall reading in Confessions where Crowley took a hoodwinked deaf man through a masonic ceremony - he communicated the ritual to him via some sort of finger spelling.

It's interesting how foreign phrases and chants assume an air of mystique and inherent power, even when words have become garbled. Of course, the original practitioners understood the meaning of what they were saying. All sorts of errors can creep in when language isn't understood; it's like an actor getting confused and reading out stage directions as if they were part of his speech.

Does any of this matter or make a difference? Nobody can say for sure.

What are the essential elements of ritual?
Does magical ritual work?
avatar
amandachen
Admin

Location : Not an admin, so quit pestering me
Number of posts : 291
Registration date : 2008-08-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Effects of Language on Effectiveness

Post  Khephra on Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:07 am

Frater_NS wrote:No. Spaking in Ye Olde way is purely a psychological crutch, to make the ritual different that your daily speech.

My sentiments exactly. Smile

_________________
"Sacred Activism is the fusion of the mystic's passion for God with the activist's passion for justice, creating a third fire, which is the burning sacred heart that longs to help, preserve, and nurture every living thing." - Andrew Harvey
avatar
Khephra

Age : 52
Number of posts : 897
Registration date : 2008-08-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Effects of Language on Effectiveness

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum