"Debating the Holocaust: A New Look At Both Sides", by Thomas Dalton -

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"Debating the Holocaust: A New Look At Both Sides", by Thomas Dalton -

Post  ankh_f_n_khonsu on Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:32 am



This is a book about the Holocaust, and about two competing views of that event. On the one hand we have the traditional, orthodox view: the six million Jewish casualties, the gas chambers, the cremation ovens and mass graves. Traditional historians have thousands of surviving witnesses and the weight of history on their side. On the other hand there is a small, renegade band of writers and researchers who refuse to accept large parts of this story. These revisionists, as they call themselves, present counter-evidence and ask tough questions. They are beginning to outline a new and different narrative.

Thus there has emerged something of a debate of historic significance. This is no peripheral clash between two arcane schools of thought, regarding some minutiae of World War II. It is about history, of course, but it also speaks to fundamental issues of our time: freedom of speech and press, the operation of mass media, manipulation of public opinion, political and economic power structures, and the coercive abilities of the State. It is an astonishingly rancorous and controversial debate, with far-reaching implications.

Most of the reading public is only dimly aware of this debate, if at all. Everyone knows that six million Jews were killed by the Nazis, and that gas chambers were used in the killing. But few have any idea about the origins of this story, its rationale, and its justification. Fewer still know that serious questions have been raised against the traditional view; if they have heard of such questions, it is in the context of a few right-wing neo-Nazi anti-Semites who are trying to attack the Jews by questioning the Holocaust. And not more than a handful of people know about the serious issues raised by the revisionists, and the attempts by certain traditionalists to respond.

The fact that so few are aware of this Great Debate is perhaps not surprising. Much has been invested in the conventional story. Textbooks and encyclopedias have been written about it. Historians have staked their personal reputations on it. Politicians have passed laws defending it. And wealthy and powerful interests have good reason to sustain it. In short, very few of those in positions of influence want to acknowledge any kind of legitimate debate. There is no incentive to publicize it, and strong disincentive. Those in the public eye know that, should they broach this subject, they will suffer the consequences. Advertisers will drop out. Financial backers will disappear. They may be sued. They will lose access. They will be shunned. And it will all be legal.

Only a dramatic turn of events can force this debate into the public realm. Such a turn occurred in early 2006, when Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad announced that there would be a Holocaust conference in Teheran. The purpose would be to examine its scientific and technical basis with an eye to reinterpreting the facts. Reaction was rapid and fierce. Most called it a Holocaust denial conference, dismissing it as so much anti-Semitic raving. But Ahmadinejad followed through, and the conference was held in December of that year. The sky did not fall, and hoards of crazed lunatics did not rise up and slaughter Jews around the world. But the topic broke through the wall of silence; and more people now than ever suspect that all is not well with the traditional story hence the need for a book such as this.
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Re: "Debating the Holocaust: A New Look At Both Sides", by Thomas Dalton -

Post  Whitemaleseekingnothing on Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:16 am

So... what holes are there exactly in the story?

Has anyone read this book?

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Re: "Debating the Holocaust: A New Look At Both Sides", by Thomas Dalton -

Post  ankh_f_n_khonsu on Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:43 pm

According to Amazon it's a thesis, and will be released in March of 2009.

Revisionists attack the orthodox history from a number of angles and many of their criticisms have not been adequately refuted. For instance, chemists now know that Zyklon B, the chemical agent supposedly used in the gas chambers, leaves a thick blue residue and isn't very efficient for killing people. Nevertheless, orthodox WWII history holds that the gas chambers were well-oiled facilities churning out corpses by the thousands. In addition, mortuary professionals have contended that it'd be impossible to incinerate remains on such a scale as quickly as suggested.

This area of history is highly contentious, and, as the description belayed, exceptionally taboo. However, those who dig into the history surrounding the birth of PSYOPS via the OSS and MG McClure will be well-rewarded.

For a video introduction to many of the revisionists' arguments, see "Judea Declares War on Germany: A Critical Look at the Holocaust and WWII":

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Re: "Debating the Holocaust: A New Look At Both Sides", by Thomas Dalton -

Post  worlock93 on Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:05 pm

ankh_f_n_khonsu wrote: Revisionists attack the orthodox history from a number of angles and many of their criticisms have not been adequately refuted.

That's usually because revisionist prefer to ignore any evidence that refutes their claims and hinders their personal agenda.
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Re: "Debating the Holocaust: A New Look At Both Sides", by Thomas Dalton -

Post  Khephra on Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:16 pm

worlock93 wrote:That's usually because revisionist prefer to ignore any evidence that refutes their claims and hinders their personal agenda.

Bah. Such prejudice and presumption clouds perception.

See Tavris & Aronson's Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts.

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Re: "Debating the Holocaust: A New Look At Both Sides", by Thomas Dalton -

Post  Whitemaleseekingnothing on Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:55 pm

Very interesting video.

While I don't have an opnion on if the holocaust happened in the "Standard" way or not, I do think there are some interesting bits to notice:

-Denying the Holocaust brings one of the worst stigmas one can have, exceeding racism, sexism, classism, "normal" anti-semitism.
-People who deny the holocaust happened are brushed off faster than UFO, 9-11, or any of the other "mainstream" conspiracy theorists (Popular, that is).
-The holocaust is a historical event that in "normal" society is completely unquestioned.
-It is tied with the idea of Adolf Hitler being among the greatest evil people in history. Thus justifying the "Us vs them/good vs evil" rhetoric that WW2 propaganda had.

The first 3 things, in my mind, would be an awesome result for any psyops. It'd take a LOT of work to get right, but between a massive population of people of tired and angry people who were imprisoned for what passed for good reasons in WW2(Ask any Japanese-American after 1941), a zionist movement who wouldn't see an exaggeration of the german treatment of the jews to be an unreasonable step towards Isreal, and guilt from many groups of people... I can safely say that if everything went moderately well, this could have been "faked."

As I'm writing this I feel internal pressure to try and not sound like I don't believe the holocaust happened. The fact is I have no idea what happened 45 years before my birth in Europe. With the volume of social garbage I've evicted from my mind, I'm surprised that I've got any reaction to posting something on the internet.

So we've got two explanations for the above:
1. The collective mental trauma of 6 million lives being ended in some of the worst possible conditions imaginable who happened to have enough of their group survive with enough wealth to make us remember it happened and have emotional weight to that fact.
2. People (I do draw the line at saying "Jewish Bankers") took advantage of the internment of Jews in occupied europe to create a breathtaking myth of suffering to be the excuse for their people to get a country.

Both are more or less plausible. I don't see much reason to care either way. Which is a little sad in a, "Oh, there's another great lie about history purpetuated by our so called betters to control us" sort of cliche way. The lengths to which some people attempt (and succeed) to take power in the world is almost as mindblowing as that no one seems to care much about it...

Regardless of the actual facts (which seem to be up in the air), I think the lesson here is simple: History can be written however those holding the pens feel like. I can no more prove or disprove the holocaust than I could the existence of Plato. Ultimately, the "Facts" are heresay and almost always slanted towards whichever side is speaking at the moment.

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Re: "Debating the Holocaust: A New Look At Both Sides", by Thomas Dalton -

Post  Khephra on Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:25 am

Whitemaleseekingnothing wrote:Regardless of the actual facts (which seem to be up in the air), I think the lesson here is simple: History can be written however those holding the pens feel like. I can no more prove or disprove the holocaust than I could the existence of Plato. Ultimately, the "Facts" are heresay and almost always slanted towards whichever side is speaking at the moment.

Uncertainty seems apt when in a mixed state of ignorance and awareness. In common with Robert Anton Wilson, I find myself in this intoxicating position more often than not.

I've often found it ironic to note how easily many become critical of the orthodox explanation for 9-11 (through an evaluation of the evidence), but seem incapable of revising their views of the Jewish Holocaust (through an evaluation of the evidence). Unfortunately, many place a great deal of confidence in assumptions and mistake propaganda for news. One obvious historical parallel is Pearl Harbor. We now know - unequivocally - that the US not only had prior warning, but actually let the attack take place in order to garner public support for their agenda. In light of ample historical precedent, the extreme taboo placed on this topic seems telling...

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Re: "Debating the Holocaust: A New Look At Both Sides", by Thomas Dalton -

Post  Whitemaleseekingnothing on Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:49 pm

Khephra wrote:I've often found it ironic to note how easily many become critical of the orthodox explanation for 9-11 (through an evaluation of the evidence), but seem incapable of revising their views of the Jewish Holocaust (through an evaluation of the evidence). Unfortunately, many place a great deal of confidence in assumptions and mistake propaganda for news. One obvious historical parallel is Pearl Harbor. We now know - unequivocally - that the US not only had prior warning, but actually let the attack take place in order to garner public support for their agenda. In light of ample historical precedent, the extreme taboo placed on this topic seems telling...

Well said.

My guess is the former is more easily questionable because it happened in our time and we all watched it's unfolding and the lack of clear answers, unexplained chunks of the official story (For me the big one is tower 7's collapse), and the powers that be using our collective anger over 9-11 to serve their own plans (This of course doesn't mean they created it. Only a fool wouldn't take advantage of whatever circumstances come along).

Meanwhile, the Jewish Holocaust is an event two generations removed from people my age. It feeds into our rightousness of WW2 (Often cited as the last "good war" or the last time one of our wars had an obvious good vs evil tone), the basic facts seem unquestionable, it's a massive, massive crime against humanity. That's alot of emotional weight to be thrown around.

Imagine finding out the founding fathers slaughtered children to gain supernatural insight into how to win the rebellion. The amount of energy we have invested in the various parts of our cultural myth (taken as a whole, including our history) is astounding.

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Re: "Debating the Holocaust: A New Look At Both Sides", by Thomas Dalton -

Post  Khephra on Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:32 am

For the complete article, see Jezekiah:

It took me until a couple of years ago to realize that our conditioning is so deep that when the programmed individual is asked to consider what evidence exists for gas chambers, what the programmed individual hears is, “No Jews were killed by the Nazis”. That’s exactly how the programming is supposed to work. It makes possible the use of the term ‘Holocaust denier’ to keep the unconditioned sheep out of the fold.

In High American Culture of the 21st Century, there’s few greater curses thrown than that of “Holocaust Denier”. It’s gotten people deported and jailed in foreign countries while multi-billion ripoff artists are sentenced to their mansions.

This conditioning is often protected through an emotional reaction. Many people get downright angry when gas chambers and evidence are brought up in the same sentence. We see this same reaction in people that have an overarching attachment to religious or political systems also. It’s not a rational, reasoned reaction to a rational, reasonable request. For others, the reaction is one of apathy. Apathy protects the conditioning by ensuring that the source of the conditioning won’t be examined and thus, the conditioning remains.

This Holocaust conditioning is the vicegrip of a perception that lends itself to much evil being allowed to happen. By at least examining what one thinks one does or doesn’t know about the Holocaust, that grip is broken just a little bit and perception can be allowed to change rather than dictated to.

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